Could we find any solution for James or what technical support is proposed to our community

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Could we find any solution for James or what technical support is proposed to our community

Paul Perez
Administrator
Hello All,

Before going forward, first I propose you to read the post sent by James:
http://n2.nabble.com/QOS-Memory-Leak-td4799066.html#a4799066

James made an excellent investigation and find out a memory leak in open-ESB QOS features. It is a main feature used to increased the guaranty of delivery in the composite applications. Regarding the post, James is not a novice and what he found is a bug. I guess we can rely on his job to solve the bug in QOS.

Now, I start a short thinking:

Few months ago, a Sun engineer would reply to him, add the bug in a to-do list and certainly after few days, he would receive a patch that would be inserted in the nightly build. This was a common process since I often received patchs and codes from Sun developers when a bug occurs. Now this time is over.

What can James do with this bug. of course he can download the code from Internet, install Maven on his machine, recompile the code ...   But is it a solution for our community ?

Now a day, many of us (Frank, Jason, Guido...) try hard to help Open-ESB users to find solutions when they are stacked. We propose workarounds or explanations and share our feedback with the others.

However, since few weeks, I am worried not finding any patch or new code added to the project. So until now we were able to rely on the existing code to help our community. But now that James raised a new problem, that he found a bug, a Real one and identified it: What can we do?

- Could James send the bug to someone in order to get a fix ?
- Has James a chance to get a response to his issue ?
- Who is able to fix the bug. At Pymma we are not ?

As I often said, for people that have a contract with Oracle/Sun don't worry, you can send your bugs and get fixes.

Even if we are fully involved in the community, I don't know the answers. I don't even know who are available to provide them.

As far as I understood, with the help of Oracle, Open-ESB is migrating to an Open-source community with its own governance and organisation. I have no idea about the maturity of the migration and what can be the short term perspective for the Open-ESB projects and support (Ex: V2.3 or Fuji).

Are we, will we be able to provide the same level of service to Open-ESB user as some other communities do (Apache, WO2...) ?

Please note, that this post is not a complain but just a way to make a point together, to clarify what we can do, what we have to do.

Thanks for your idea,your feedback. A short brainstorming may help us to make some progresses

Best regards

Paul Perez
www.pymma.com
www.pymma.com The best services on OpenESB
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Re: Could we find any solution for James or what technical support is proposed to our community

Kevin Schmidt-2
Paul,

You raise some good questions and points, and while this is by no means an authoritative response, from what I know, here are what the options would appear to be.

First, the community can rely on Oracle to fix the issue and release it back to the community.  One would think that a paying customer would run into this problem too and thus report it and a fix would be made and eventually make it back into the community sources.  Potential issues here are that I don't know that Oracle has committed to releasing changes/fixes made for customers back into open-source, and even if they have, the timeline for that to occur may be an unknown.  Thus, this may not be an option for someone needing a fix from the community right away.

Second, one could hope that a developer at Oracle has the free time and approval to go ahead and make the fix in the community much the way you describe it happening in the past.  My guess is this is unlikely because there are few if any developers that have doing so in their job description and even if someone did do it on occasion, it likely wouldn't happen regularly as it could ultimately lead to creating a product that is increasingly competitive with Fusion Middleware.

Third, one could get the sources like you say and make the fix on their own.  This puts them in the position of having to maintain the codebase themselves and merge in any other fixes or changes there might be in the community.  Effectively, this would mean forking.  Depending on how successful the fourth option below is over time, this may ultimately become necessary, but I certainly hope not.

Fourth, one can sign the contributor agreement (something similar to the SCA I assume) and get committer rights so that the fixes can be made and contributed back to the community.  Assuming that the first and second above can't happen or won't happen in the needed timeframe, this would be the best option.  Just keep in mind that I guessing the contributor agreement you would sign would give Oracle joint copyright over the IP thus allowing them to use what was contributed in non-open-source products they have.  Note that the old SCA page from sun.com is still available for those curious about it.  http://www.sun.com/software/opensource/contributor_agreement.jsp

Of course, there is always the option of becoming a paying customer, the challenge being that it may not be possible to still buy a license to GlassFish ESB (I do not know if it is on the Oracle price-list or not) in which case one might have to go to the more expensive Java CAPS (which again I do not know exactly how it is priced and if it is available for new customers).

Again, just my opinion and observations on the options here.  Others welcome.

Kevin

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 9:53 AM, Paul Perez <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello All,

Before going forward, first I propose you to read the post sent by James:
http://n2.nabble.com/QOS-Memory-Leak-td4799066.html#a4799066
http://n2.nabble.com/QOS-Memory-Leak-td4799066.html#a4799066

James made an excellent investigation and find out a memory leak in open-ESB
QOS features. It is a main feature used to increased the guaranty of
delivery in the composite applications. Regarding the post, James is not a
novice and what he found is a bug. I guess we can rely on his job to solve
the bug in QOS.

Now, I start a short thinking:

Few months ago, a Sun engineer would reply to him, add the bug in a to-do
list and certainly after few days, he would receive a patch that would be
inserted in the nightly build. This was a common process since I often
received patchs and codes from Sun developers when a bug occurs. Now this
time is over.

What can James do with this bug. of course he can download the code from
Internet, install Maven on his machine, recompile the code ...   But is it a
solution for our community ?

Now a day, many of us (Frank, Jason, Guido...) try hard to help Open-ESB
users to find solutions when they are stacked. We propose workarounds or
explanations and share our feedback with the others.

However, since few weeks, I am worried not finding any patch or new code
added to the project. So until now we were able to rely on the existing code
to help our community. But now that James raised a new problem, that he
found a bug, a Real one and identified it: What can we do?

- Could James send the bug to someone in order to get a fix ?
- Has James a chance to get a response to his issue ?
- Who is able to fix the bug. At Pymma we are not ?

As I often said, for people that have a contract with Oracle/Sun don't
worry, you can send your bugs and get fixes.

Even if we are fully involved in the community, I don't know the answers. I
don't even know who are available to provide them.

As far as I understood, with the help of Oracle, Open-ESB is migrating to an
Open-source community with its own governance and organisation. I have no
idea about the maturity of the migration and what can be the short term
perspective for the Open-ESB projects and support (Ex: V2.3 or Fuji).

Are we, will we be able to provide the same level of service to Open-ESB
user as some other communities do (Apache, WO2...) ?

Please note, that this post is not a complain but just a way to make a point
together, to clarify what we can do, what we have to do.

Thanks for your idea,your feedback. A short brainstorming may help us to
make some progresses

Best regards

Paul Perez
www.pymma.com
--
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RE: Could we find any solution for James or what technical support is proposed to our community

Fred Aabedi-2
Hello Kevin,
You have outlined the options very well and I have some comments on them and a variation/suggestion that may be useful for some:
 
First option - This can happen but there are two issues. 1) We don't know when another customer will run into the issue and by the time they do and a fix is available, it may be late for the initial customer that ran into it. 2) As you said, we are certain that Oracle will of their release their customer fixes back into open source and the time frames for do so.

Second option - I agree and believe it is highly unlikely that an Oracle developer will get assigned or spend the time to fix the bug in the open source version. If anything, it's more likely that if that component/... is used in an strategic Oracle product (e.g. Oracle Fusion), it will be fixed there instead and may not make it back to the open source version.

Third option - This is possible for some customers but very resource intensive and not really practical for most customers and once you fork, as you said, you are basically on your own and have created a big maintenance problem and liability and very resource intensive to maintain.
 
Fourth option - I think this is a good option for customers who have the expertise and are willing to spend the resources it takes to do the fix properly and ensure that it passes all of the existing test cases.... and ultimately be able to commit it to the source base. My guess is that most customers won't have the proper resources targeted to be able to do this properly. For this option vendors like LogiCoy can be of assistance. Since we have resources that are the original developers of OpenESB, we are in a better position to do so with less effort and properly. In general, we must balance our time and priorities on revenue generating projects and can only work on issues for the community in our spare time (and those are hard to come by usually). If the customer has a certain timeframe for having the fix done, then we can help them meet the time frame on a fee basis that we can work out with them based on the level of effort it takes to fix the bug. If there is no set time frame, then we can put it on our plate to do as we get time... without fees.

For the last option, I have heard of a couple of situations very recently where the new customer approached Oracle to buy support specifically for GlassFish ESB and they were told that in order to get support for GlassFish ESB, they need to license support for Oracle Fusion and as part that they will be able to get support for GlassFish ESB. The catch was that the price for this was substantially higher than the price Sun offered for support of GlassFish ESB in the past to the point it was cost prohibitive for those customers.

I believe we can help customers with the Fourth and the last option.

Thanks,
Fred Aabedi

(626) 278-4085

[hidden email]

LogiCoy, Inc.

  

From: [hidden email]
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 15:09:24 -0700
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Could we find any solution for James or what technical support is proposed to our community

Paul,

You raise some good questions and points, and while this is by no means an authoritative response, from what I know, here are what the options would appear to be.

First, the community can rely on Oracle to fix the issue and release it back to the community.  One would think that a paying customer would run into this problem too and thus report it and a fix would be made and eventually make it back into the community sources.  Potential issues here are that I don't know that Oracle has committed to releasing changes/fixes made for customers back into open-source, and even if they have, the timeline for that to occur may be an unknown.  Thus, this may not be an option for someone needing a fix from the community right away.

Second, one could hope that a developer at Oracle has the free time and approval to go ahead and make the fix in the community much the way you describe it happening in the past.  My guess is this is unlikely because there are few if any developers that have doing so in their job description and even if someone did do it on occasion, it likely wouldn't happen regularly as it could ultimately lead to creating a product that is increasingly competitive with Fusion Middleware.

Third, one could get the sources like you say and make the fix on their own.  This puts them in the position of having to maintain the codebase themselves and merge in any other fixes or changes there might be in the community.  Effectively, this would mean forking.  Depending on how successful the fourth option below is over time, this may ultimately become necessary, but I certainly hope not.

Fourth, one can sign the contributor agreement (something similar to the SCA I assume) and get committer rights so that the fixes can be made and contributed back to the community.  Assuming that the first and second above can't happen or won't happen in the needed timeframe, this would be the best option.  Just keep in mind that I guessing the contributor agreement you would sign would give Oracle joint copyright over the IP thus allowing them to use what was contributed in non-open-source products they have.  Note that the old SCA page from sun.com is still available for those curious about it.  http://www.sun.com/software/opensource/contributor_agreement.jsp

Of course, there is always the option of becoming a paying customer, the challenge being that it may not be possible to still buy a license to GlassFish ESB (I do not know if it is on the Oracle price-list or not) in which case one might have to go to the more expensive Java CAPS (which again I do not know exactly how it is priced and if it is available for new customers).

Again, just my opinion and observations on the options here.  Others welcome.

Kevin

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 9:53 AM, Paul Perez <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello All,

Before going forward, first I propose you to read the post sent by James:
http://n2.nabble.com/QOS-Memory-Leak-td4799066.html#a4799066
http://n2.nabble.com/QOS-Memory-Leak-td4799066.html#a4799066

James made an excellent investigation and find out a memory leak in open-ESB
QOS features. It is a main feature used to increased the guaranty of
delivery in the composite applications. Regarding the post, James is not a
novice and what he found is a bug. I guess we can rely on his job to solve
the bug in QOS.

Now, I start a short thinking:

Few months ago, a Sun engineer would reply to him, add the bug in a to-do
list and certainly after few days, he would receive a patch that would be
inserted in the nightly build. This was a common process since I often
received patchs and codes from Sun developers when a bug occurs. Now this
time is over.

What can James do with this bug. of course he can download the code from
Internet, install Maven on his machine, recompile the code ...   But is it a
solution for our community ?

Now a day, many of us (Frank, Jason, Guido...) try hard to help Open-ESB
users to find solutions when they are stacked. We propose workarounds or
explanations and share our feedback with the others.

However, since few weeks, I am worried not finding any patch or new code
added to the project. So until now we were able to rely on the existing code
to help our community. But now that James raised a new problem, that he
found a bug, a Real one and identified it: What can we do?

- Could James send the bug to someone in order to get a fix ?
- Has James a chance to get a response to his issue ?
- Who is able to fix the bug. At Pymma we are not ?

As I often said, for people that have a contract with Oracle/Sun don't
worry, you can send your bugs and get fixes.

Even if we are fully involved in the community, I don't know the answers. I
don't even know who are available to provide them.

As far as I understood, with the help of Oracle, Open-ESB is migrating to an
Open-source community with its own governance and organisation. I have no
idea about the maturity of the migration and what can be the short term
perspective for the Open-ESB projects and support (Ex: V2.3 or Fuji).

Are we, will we be able to provide the same level of service to Open-ESB
user as some other communities do (Apache, WO2...) ?

Please note, that this post is not a complain but just a way to make a point
together, to clarify what we can do, what we have to do.

Thanks for your idea,your feedback. A short brainstorming may help us to
make some progresses

Best regards

Paul Perez
www.pymma.com
--
View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Could-we-find-any-solution-for-James-or-what-technical-support-is-proposed-to-our-community-tp4805078p4805078.html
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RE: Could we find any solution for James or what technical support isproposed to our community

Frank Kieviet
Administrator
In reply to this post by Kevin Schmidt-2

Hi Paul, Kevin, and everybody:

 

Kevin has given a good overview of the options. Thanks, Kevin! To add to that:

 

>>  Potential issues here are that I don't know that Oracle has committed to releasing changes/fixes made for customers back into open-source, and even if they have, the timeline for that to occur may be an unknown.  

It's indeed the plan that fixes made by Sustaining are put back into the open source repository. The timeline is short, a matter of a week or so, I hope.

 

>>Second, one could hope that a developer at Oracle has the free time and approval to go ahead and make the fix in the community much the way you describe it happening in the past. My guess is this is unlikely

To be bluntly honest, this is indeed unlikely.

 

>> Fourth, one can sign the contributor agreement (something similar to the SCA I assume) and get committer rights so that the fixes can be made and contributed back to the community.

Indeed very much so. And I hope that James will commit the fix. A practical issue right now is that of a periodic build and running the automated test suite on the bits. I had promised that that would have been in place by last week, but it didn't happen. I'm now hoping for this week.

 

>> Of course, there is always the option of becoming a paying customer, the challenge being that it may not be possible to still buy a license to GlassFish ESB

Indeed, it will be difficult for a new customer to buy a license for GlassFish ESB.

 

The guiding principle in all this is that Oracle is supportive of the OpenESB community, but that Oracle will not invest much in OpenESB and that these investments will decrease over time in the hope that the OpenESB community will be able to stand on its own without the big sponsor that Sun used to be. Hopefully individuals like James Agnew and companies like Logicoy and Pymma will fill in the void (I'm mentioning these for no particular reason other than that they are in this email thread).

 

HTH,

Frank

 

Frank Kieviet

OpenESB Community Manager (http://open-esb.org)

Oracle, Monrovia, CA

Tel +1 626 471 6322

Blog: http://frankkieviet.blogspot.com/

 

 

 

 


From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Kevin Schmidt
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 15:09
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Could we find any solution for James or what technical support isproposed to our community

 

Paul,

 

You raise some good questions and points, and while this is by no means an authoritative response, from what I know, here are what the options would appear to be.

 

First, the community can rely on Oracle to fix the issue and release it back to the community.  One would think that a paying customer would run into this problem too and thus report it and a fix would be made and eventually make it back into the community sources.  Potential issues here are that I don't know that Oracle has committed to releasing changes/fixes made for customers back into open-source, and even if they have, the timeline for that to occur may be an unknown.  Thus, this may not be an option for someone needing a fix from the community right away.

 

Second, one could hope that a developer at Oracle has the free time and approval to go ahead and make the fix in the community much the way you describe it happening in the past.  My guess is this is unlikely because there are few if any developers that have doing so in their job description and even if someone did do it on occasion, it likely wouldn't happen regularly as it could ultimately lead to creating a product that is increasingly competitive with Fusion Middleware.

 

Third, one could get the sources like you say and make the fix on their own.  This puts them in the position of having to maintain the codebase themselves and merge in any other fixes or changes there might be in the community.  Effectively, this would mean forking.  Depending on how successful the fourth option below is over time, this may ultimately become necessary, but I certainly hope not.

 

Fourth, one can sign the contributor agreement (something similar to the SCA I assume) and get committer rights so that the fixes can be made and contributed back to the community.  Assuming that the first and second above can't happen or won't happen in the needed timeframe, this would be the best option.  Just keep in mind that I guessing the contributor agreement you would sign would give Oracle joint copyright over the IP thus allowing them to use what was contributed in non-open-source products they have.  Note that the old SCA page from sun.com is still available for those curious about it.  http://www.sun.com/software/opensource/contributor_agreement.jsp

 

Of course, there is always the option of becoming a paying customer, the challenge being that it may not be possible to still buy a license to GlassFish ESB (I do not know if it is on the Oracle price-list or not) in which case one might have to go to the more expensive Java CAPS (which again I do not know exactly how it is priced and if it is available for new customers).

Again, just my opinion and observations on the options here.  Others welcome.

 

Kevin

 

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 9:53 AM, Paul Perez <[hidden email]> wrote:


Hello All,

Before going forward, first I propose you to read the post sent by James:
http://n2.nabble.com/QOS-Memory-Leak-td4799066.html#a4799066
http://n2.nabble.com/QOS-Memory-Leak-td4799066.html#a4799066

James made an excellent investigation and find out a memory leak in open-ESB
QOS features. It is a main feature used to increased the guaranty of
delivery in the composite applications. Regarding the post, James is not a
novice and what he found is a bug. I guess we can rely on his job to solve
the bug in QOS.

Now, I start a short thinking:

Few months ago, a Sun engineer would reply to him, add the bug in a to-do
list and certainly after few days, he would receive a patch that would be
inserted in the nightly build. This was a common process since I often
received patchs and codes from Sun developers when a bug occurs. Now this
time is over.

What can James do with this bug. of course he can download the code from
Internet, install Maven on his machine, recompile the code ...   But is it a
solution for our community ?

Now a day, many of us (Frank, Jason, Guido...) try hard to help Open-ESB
users to find solutions when they are stacked. We propose workarounds or
explanations and share our feedback with the others.

However, since few weeks, I am worried not finding any patch or new code
added to the project. So until now we were able to rely on the existing code
to help our community. But now that James raised a new problem, that he
found a bug, a Real one and identified it: What can we do?

- Could James send the bug to someone in order to get a fix ?
- Has James a chance to get a response to his issue ?
- Who is able to fix the bug. At Pymma we are not ?

As I often said, for people that have a contract with Oracle/Sun don't
worry, you can send your bugs and get fixes.

Even if we are fully involved in the community, I don't know the answers. I
don't even know who are available to provide them.

As far as I understood, with the help of Oracle, Open-ESB is migrating to an
Open-source community with its own governance and organisation. I have no
idea about the maturity of the migration and what can be the short term
perspective for the Open-ESB projects and support (Ex: V2.3 or Fuji).

Are we, will we be able to provide the same level of service to Open-ESB
user as some other communities do (Apache, WO2...) ?

Please note, that this post is not a complain but just a way to make a point
together, to clarify what we can do, what we have to do.

Thanks for your idea,your feedback. A short brainstorming may help us to
make some progresses

Best regards

Paul Perez
www.pymma.com
--
View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Could-we-find-any-solution-for-James-or-what-technical-support-is-proposed-to-our-community-tp4805078p4805078.html
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Re: Could we find any solution for James or what technical support isproposed to our community

jbaragry
>>> Of course, there is always the option of becoming a paying customer, the
>>> challenge being that it may not be possible to still buy a license to
>>> GlassFish ESB
>
> Indeed, it will be difficult for a new customer to buy a license for
> GlassFish ESB.
>

Some interesting answers to this question so far....

Because of how the acquisition process works, not all countries are
fully legally integrated yet. I.e., while Sun Microsystems in the US
is legally integrated into Oracle US, the same is not yet true in all
countries - especially in europe. This is called LEC (legal entity
combination) and it takes time to happen.

If a country is post-LEC then it is not possible to become a new
customer for GFESB. I.e., its not a product on the oracle pricelist.
However, existing GFESB customers can buy additional licenses.

In countries that are pre-LEC, then it may be possible to buy GFESB
licenses. You will need to check with your local _Sun_ office for
that.

The information that you need to buy an Oracle fusion license is wrong.

regard
Jason

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Re: Could we find any solution for James or what technical support isproposed to our community

Paul Perez
Administrator
Hi Jason, Hi all

In UK it is too late. If we want to get a support on Glassfish ESB we have to buy a Java CAPS license.
Gloups .

Paul Perez
www.pymma.com


www.pymma.com The best services on OpenESB
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RE: Could we find any solution for James or what technical support isproposed to our community

Paul Peters
Hi Paul,

As far as I know there is no general policy and whichever deal is made is
made between the client and the representative of Sun Software Sales.
In the recent past I've heard a lot of nonsensical suggestions where the
only common factor is that the price is higher than before.. This also
includes charging for demo software for service partners, which under
Oracle's arrangements are free. Maybe these sales guys work on commision ?
Nothing preventing you from getting a JavaCAPS license at the price of
Glassfish ESB though.. :-)

Take care
Paul Peters

Fluxology SA
www.fluxology.net



-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Perez

Hi Jason, Hi all

In UK it is too late. If we want to get a support on Glassfish ESB we have
to buy a Java CAPS license.
Gloups :-((.

Paul Perez
www.pymma.com


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RE: Could we find any solution for James or what technical support isproposed to our community

Paul Perez
Administrator
Hi Paul,

How are you, long time we did hear from you ?

Today, I call our Sun representative for a new Glassfish-ESB Users and it is not possible to get any new license for Glassfish ESB.This means that contrary to what you said, we get a Glassfish ESB for a Java CAPS license.

I can imagine that we are far from the old version price 10K to 35K USD  asked for the support

I'll try to get the new Java CAPS license prices in UK issued by Oracle but it seams complicated to get them.

If someone already has an idea about the new license prices could you communicate them roughly.

Thanks

Paul Perez
www.pymma.com
www.pymma.com The best services on OpenESB